Hey, how's it going? It's Ollie here. Very warm welcome to the Ecommerce Freedom Podcast. In today's episode, I want to do something slightly different, something special. And I actually have with me Terry Giles, who is the author of an upcoming book, The Fifteen Percent: Overcoming Hardships and Achieving Lasting Success.
I actually stumbled across this book on Amazon. And the title in itself grabbed me straight away, and once I understood the meaning behind the title and the book and what it was about, I had to contact and ask him to appear on the podcast just because this stuff is so relevant.
When I'm thinking about building a business, I always think about, you know, the small minority of people who really make it versus the majority of people who try, who kind of dabble, and for some reason just can't get that. So I'm hoping for today with Terry's insights, a lot of the psychological insights you're going to hear from him, we'll get a lot of value and hopefully this could even help you on your journey.
Terry, it's an absolute pleasure to have you here. How are you doing today?
I'm doing great and it's really fun to be with you today as well.
Fantastic. Love it. Okay, Terry, I'm very interested to hear about your backstory. So could you give us maybe the cliff notes version of what led you to this moment when you said to yourself, you know, I have to write this book?
Well, I had come from a childhood that most people would consider to be a serious hardship. We were very poor. My mom had me when she was 18. She only had a high school education. We lived in the Ozarks, on the Missouri side of the Ozark Mountains. My father had gone through World War II and unfortunately came out of it with all the island landings as a bit of an alcoholic.
He had serious alcohol issues his whole life. So he would disappear for months at a time and then eventually ended up in a jail in Arizona. He was a good man, but he was really troubled by everything he saw during World War II. Of course, I didn't understand that when I was a kid. I just knew, yeah, dad wasn't around. And then when he was around, it was almost better when he wasn't there.
And as a result, we moved around a lot because we had a lot of financial issues. So I changed schools 21 times in the first 10 years I was in school in three different states. So most psychiatrists would tell you that the things I went through are considered to be sort of serious hardships.
Yet, it always occurred to me that those events prepared me for life. And it prepared me for the life that I led, and even prepared me to have significant success.
So from 2000 to 2008, I represented 150 of the 800 victims of what was called the Catholic Predator Priest cases in California. And we had to do a psych workup on each of our clients. And in dealing with the psychiatrist and psychologist, I was very interested to find out that within psychiatric science, someone goes through a serious hardship.
85% of the time it wrecks their life, sometimes destroys it completely. And yet in 15% of the cases, the person comes out the other side of that hardship stronger and better then they would have been had they not gone through the hardship at all. And I was surprised by the numbers, but I also thought that that had related somewhat to my life.
So then I began to really do some serious research into the area to try to determine what are the elements, what are the characteristics that allow the 15% to be successful, and could I go back in my life and identify those characteristics and how that happened for me.
Because ultimately, what I wanted to do was to find out, is this stuff something that's built in to somebody's DNA? Is it luck, or are they skill sets that can be taught and learned? Because if that's the case, then why are we limited to 15%? Why couldn't it be 25%, or the 50% or the 75%?
The book was to hopefully give folks out there that have, you know, everybody goes through some kind of hardship in their life, but they give people some kind of a road map for how they might be able to fight through it, come out on the other side better and stronger than if they hadn't gone through the hardship at all.
That's fascinating. I'm so interested in those points, I'm so interested in, you know, what distinguishes people from the 15% who break through, pull through, don't have this victim mentality, and the 85% who don't. And if, yeah, increasing that percentage who feel empowered surely is something we should be aiming to do.
So before we get onto what distinguishes those two groups and things that we can do to change it, I want to just really expand on the point that you have been successful. I want people to understand that you may have had hardships when you were younger, but you really have achieved some crazy things.
So can we go through and basically, Terry, I just want to give you a chance to just brag about all the cool stuff that you've achieved in spite of not having the perfect childhood.
Okay, sure. You know, probably starting in fifth grade, I mentioned that I moved around a lot, went to a lot of different schools. My grades weren't that fantastic, but I always excelled, would get the best grade in the class anytime I had to get up and give some kind of an oral report.
So if it was an oral book report or some presentation or I had to get up in front of the class, I always excelled. So starting in about fifth grade, I decided that what I really wanted to be was a trial lawyer. And I grew up during the television shows of Perry Mason and Owen Marshall. And so I thought being a criminal defense lawyer would be exactly the perfect career for me.
So I went through, I finished undergraduate school, and then I had to get the military out of the way because I came out of school during the Vietnam era. Then I went to law school and I came out of law school and I started my own firm doing nothing but criminal defense. And over the next eight and a half years, we had the largest criminal practice in California.
We were making over 600 criminal court appearances a month. In eight years, I tried 90 cases to verdict, including 13 murders and three death penalty cases. I was making lots of money. I was in the paper almost daily. It was very heady stuff and I was really at the top of my game, the top of my field. I was living the life that I had dreamed of and that I had asked for.
And then Fred Douglas came along. Fred was a guy in California, accused of causing the death of nine women. And making something very terrible porno snuff movies, were called porno snuff movies. I represented Fred 'cause it was a big case. And we got some evidence suppressed and you know, some things really broke our way in the trial and I ended up getting Fred off.
And then six months later, he killed two more girls. And I couldn't figure out why the world was a better place because I did what I did for a living. And.. I was in Hawaii - the first vacation I'd taken since I started the firm - when I got the news on Douglas being rearrested. I went back, and I turned the firm over to my partners, and I quit the practice of law.
As a bit of a surprise for me at that moment to realize that the practice wasn't really worth anything. I couldn't sell the practice. And I couldn't because I was the main guy and it's a personal services business. So I've worked hard to build up this very significant enterprise, but there wasn't any value in it for anyone else without me being there. In fact, within six months, the firm fell apart.
And so I decided though, you know what, I had built a business called the practice of law and I did, you know, I built it from scratch. Nobody had told me how to do it. I figured it out. Why couldn't I do that? You know, businesses. So I bought a small Toyota dealership in Orange County, California. It was a Toyota and out of 1,200 Toyota stores in 1983, it was number 1,150 selling 30 cars a month.
When I sold the store in 1987, we were the fifth largest Toyota store in the world selling over 1,100 cars a month. I went on to be chairman of a bank, have manufacturing companies, produced a play on Broadway. Today, I'm chairman of a company headquartered in San Francisco, Landmark Worldwide. We have 41 offices in 21 countries doing business consulting.
I own two five-star hotels in Europe. I've had, in essence, 35 companies since I began my career and in all sorts of fields. Some people say that means that I'm an entrepreneur. Actually I think I just have adult ADD. And then I had the opportunity to get back into the practice of law.
I was offered an opportunity to put together a small firm for the sole purpose of preparing and trying one case in Northern California about four years after I quit the practice. And I liked the client and I liked the cause because it was civil, not criminal. I took the case, we won it. They wrote a book about it called Once Upon a Time in Computer Land.
And I kept the team together and we went on and I did 60 more trials that were civil trials where I can pick my clients, where I have good clients, good causes. And my final set of cases where the Predator Priest cases in California that finally resolved themselves in 2008.
So, since then, I have continued my business career. I have been lucky enough to use my law degree to be appointed as trustee for a number of very interesting, exciting ventures.
For two and a half years, a court in Atlanta appointed me as the trustee of the Martin Luther King Estate where I was to try to bring peace to the siblings of Martin and Coretta Scott King. I have served as trustee for a number of wealthy families in the country today. I'm doing consulting with a family that owns a major league baseball team.
It allows me to get involved in things that I otherwise would never see or touch and to meet very, very interesting people. So I consider myself to be very, very lucky. I came from an area where no one would have expected my life to look like this. I had a mom who was unbelievable. My mom, although she didn't have a lot of education and she worked hard, she was a real fan of Norman Vincent Peale's power of positive thinking. And she raised my sister and I to believe that we could be anything we wanted to be when I was a kid.
She would actually, I mean, we were, I'm telling you, we were pretty poor. And at night she would pretend that she could read my palm, she could read palm. She never did it in her life, but she pretended that she was a palm reader and she would read my palm and tell me about my destiny and how successful I was going to be and how much money I was gonna make.
And, you know, she was my mom. I believed her. And my sister and I grew up believing we would be successful and we both have been successful in our own individual lives. So I was lucky enough to have a great mom.
And then as I went back and I examined my life and I examined the traits and the characteristics that cause a person to be able to be in the 15% I could see that that part of it was luck, like my mom. Part of it was learned. And part of it just seemed to be inherent, although I think it could still be taught and learned. So it's been quite a ride and I feel, you know, I feel very, very lucky, very, very fortunate, to have had the life that I have had.
That's a fascinating story, man. Sounds like you've just done so much fascinating stuff. I want to pick apart all of that, although we don't have too long today. One thing I do want to just jump back to quickly as you mentioned, you produced a Broadway play. I'm a huge fan of a Broadway - well, it's the West End in London. Which play was that? I'm fascinated.
Yeah, it was a one-man stage play on the life and times of Babe Ruth. We produced it in 1983. It appeared on Broadway. We had sold, we were going to film it, and we had sold the film rights to a brand new, a sports-related television network called ESPN.
So we had a profit built in, thank goodness, because we got the Broadway and we put on the play. And then Broadway - I was wondering why is it that, you know, those reviews come out in the three main papers one day and a play's either successful or not successful.
And this is one of those situations where I didn't do my proper research. I was just all caught up in the glamour of the whole thing. So we produced the play. And when you produce a play there, you can run the play as many times as you want before you say, okay, this is opening night.
So we actually ran it for a month for audiences to get reaction to do our filming and all of that. And sportswriters were coming into the city and they wanted to come over and see it. We were getting great reviews of the sports pages. And then we finally had our review. About that time, I thought, boy, we're going to have a great success here. This thing is going to be powerful.
Well, what I didn't realize is that the only sports play at that time that had ever been successful was actually a musical called damn Yankees. And you know, this was a play about Babe Ruth. And what Babe Ruth liked to do was eat, drink, play baseball. And have sex with women.
And it turned out reviewers really hated the play and the papers were just horrible. And, as a result, we died on the vine. You know, it's interesting. The reason those reviews are so important is the ticket agencies that buy your show out for six months or a year, three years or five years in advance. The reviews are bad. They don't buy the tickets and you can't stay alive. Just different agencies.
If I know that in advance and I might have done, there might've been some things I would have done a little bit differently. And you know, it's important. I've had 35 companies, not all of them had been successful. I've been lucky to have a few that have been home runs, and then I've had a lot of triples and doubles and singles.
But I've had some strike outs too. And no, you learn more. I mean, this is an important thing. Losing is important in our lives because it is in losing that we learn the most. The real lessons I've learned have come from my losses, not from my wins. The wins start to make you feel like you're bulletproof and that's about the time you'll take one to the heart.
I found that the losses have been most valuable. They hurt the most. They're the most - you know, they cause you the most stress and upset and all of that. But if you really analyze what you did wrong,how you can improve, how you can make yourself better, those losses become very important to you.
That's fascinating. Yeah, I can so relate. I can so relate. One of the things I always say to my coaching clients is like, when something's not going well, in a way you should cherish it because it's so much more valuable long term than something going very well. And it just makes so much sense.
So, it definitely sounds like you're firmly within the 15% of people who are empowered. So how would you describe what distinguishes the 85% of people who have just go through life of victim mentality and how are they separated from the 15th? And how would you be able to tell if somebody was in either category? And why are they there?
Well, I think if we were going to go in reverse order, we're going to start at the end and then work our way back. And you've just used the term that is tremendously important. And that is the term victimhood.
When we go through hardship, when human beings go through hardship, we're all, I don't care if you're in the 85 or the 15%, a hundred percent have a tendency to say 'why me'?
That's the human reaction to when something bad happens to you. But what happens with the 85% is they get stuck there. They begin to think of themselves as a victim. They look at themselves as a victim. They speak as if they're a victim. They start to act out or use conduct that's similar to being a victim. And pretty soon they're stuck in victimhood. And then the next bad thing that can happen to them is they start to feel sorry for themselves.
And what's worse is they start to get off on other people feeling sorry for them. Now they are really stuck and it's very unlikely that they're going to be able to pull themselves out if they get that far into it. On the other side of the scale of 15%, they feel the same pain.
They go, why me? They embrace the pain. They feel it and then they say to themselves, you know what, this wasn't, this is not fun. I don't like this pain and I'm never going to let this happen to me again and I'm going to figure out what I did wrong. What lessons are to learn here? And I'm gonna work my way through this. Now as they break through to the other side, they begin to see that they can in fact be in charge of their life.
They are not at the mercy of life, but they are in charge of their life. And as they see that miracle occurred to them, that I can move out of hardship and into success, it just makes them more positive. And every time you break through a loss and go back to a win, you get more and more positive. You get more and more convinced that you are in charge of your life. You become more and more convinced that you can create miracles in your life. And so that is why the 15% know so well now.
Now we get to the point of, well, what are the characteristics that help one to get through there. One other thing I should mention too, and I think the worst kind of leadership, I don't care if it's in a city or it's in a community or it's an a state or it's in a nation. The worst kind of leadership is leadership that promotes victimhood.
When you promote victimhood, you are helping to destroy the lives of your constituents. Maybe there are politicians who somehow feel good that, oh, you can't make it. So we're going to give you this or we're going to give you that because we're such good-hearted people.
Listen, there are problems and we can work on the problems and we should always help those that are more disadvantaged than us, but that's a temporary situation. You don't ever set it up to be permanent because you want to do that. You have destroyed that person by putting them in permanent victimhood.
It's why socialism never ever really works. A socialism has baked into it. Victimhood, oh we, I'm not talking about us helping. I'm not talking about as reaching out and making sure we pull people up with us in our society. I'm not talking about us not doing that, but you can not, when you say to somebody, well, you can't make it without my help and I'm going to give you permanent help so you won't have to worry about anything anymore. I'm going to take care of you. You just put them in permanent victim.
And that's why no matter where you look at at socialism or communism, it finally fails. And when it fails, it takes a generation for them to come out of it. The political scientists would say socialism and communism doesn't work because it destroys incentive, but it goes deeper than that. It creates a whole nation of victims and they get so deeply set in victimhood that it becomes almost impossible to move out of it. And it'll take decades for a nation to recover from those kinds of things.
Anyway, going back to the 15%, some of the things that are important. Number one, the power of words. So words, your amazing words make us laugh or just make us cry. Words make us excited, words can depress us. We live, unfortunately, in a world when we're young, where almost, everybody tells us you can't do this and you can't do that. And as kids, you're like a lot more likely to hear no way, way more than you'll ever hear yes. And that's a shame because it creates sort of a negative view of what you can or cannot do.
But words are also important. The words we say inside our head when we're thinking to ourselves, those words are just as important. And if you're telling yourself in your head that you're a loser, if you're telling yourself in your head, I can't do this, you're going to be living out the words that you're saying to yourself.
So the power of words is extremely important. Athletes always talk about a visualization and we know that that works for him. Golfers, if you watch them before they hit the ball, they stand behind the ball and they stare out. What they're doing is they're visualizing themselves hitting the ball. All great athletes have talked about it.
Larry Bird talked about it, basketball. Wayne Gretzky in hockey, Joe Montana, football, Joe DiMaggio and yeah, baseball. They have all great athletes talk about visualization. Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, all of them.
But you can visualize outside of sports. You can visualize yourself as a better husband or as a better father, or as a better sibling or as a better employee, or is a better employer. If you can visualize a better version of you, that's what I call aligning your consciousness. And now with your consciousness, if you can also align your communication words and your conduct or action, I say that the universe cannot deny you.
Now you just gotta be careful what you ask for. So if you could use visualization, you visualize yourself as the best person you can be in a certain setting and now you back it up with everything you say and do, you will begin to follow. You will begin to follow that line and in every moment of now and every month, you know, nothing really happens in the past or in the future.
Everything that happens, happens in a moment. Now we can think about what we're going to do in the future. We should think about what we did in the past, but when we're actually taking action, it's in a moment of now and in any moment of now, we can decide to change our life and the trajectory of our life if that is what we want to do. So the power of words and visualization are two great things.
And another deal is you've got to conquer fear. You need to develop a low fear factor and nobody is without fear. And everybody has.. every time I've entered into a new business, did I have some trepidation about it? Sure I did. That's normal. But you have to overcome that real life happens on the other side of your comfort zones.
And you have to be able to reach out through your comfort zone in order to experience great things happening in your life. Transformation happens on the other side of your comfort zone. And you just got to fight your way through it. And once you do that, then the next time it, you will be less afraid. So the first time it's tough, but then you got to keep going. You know, there's a talk about the book.
There was a study done in England that I thought was really fascinating when England was in the war and they knew the Nazis were going to start bombing Churchill and his people were really concerned that everybody in England would be afraid.
And when the bombings started, they would panic and they would leave the city to go to the countryside for protection. And when they did that, of course it would kill the economy and there'd be all sorts of problems for the country. But it turned out to be very interesting. What happened when the bombs fell, of course, they would kill you. You are dead.
So you're going to have an impact one way or the other, other than your relatives or friends missing you. But if you survived, a very interesting thing happened. And scientifically or psychologically or psychological science calls it a near miss.
When you experience a near miss, you actually get excited. You would actually find that exhilarating. You find it to be wonderful that you have lived through it. You start to see yourself in a different way.
And as a result people did not flee London, the people who survived the bombing survived near misses and they got almost exuberant about it. They were so brave. They gained courage they never, ever thought they had because they went through this near miss.
When I examined my life, I realized that happened to me when I was eight years old concerning a tornado. And once I got through to the other side, wow. You know, I realized that was my near miss. And I think I never really had a fear factor after that.
In fact, I have a saying that whenever I'm going into something completely new - you know, when I reported to basic training in the military, or I was just starting the new law firm, or just breaking out now starting the automobile dealership - whenever I'm taking on something where I'm not down deep, you know, I have a little trepidation.
I have a saying that I say to myself, I say, Terry, lean forward and hope your feet keep up with you before your face hits the ground. I love that. And what that does is to remind me to just put one step in front of the other, just like I did getting away from that tornado that day when I was eight years old.
Put one foot in front of the other and you will reach your goal, but don't stop, don't freeze up. Overcome your fear. Move forward. So those are some of the areas that we cover in the book.
Fascinating. So this, what we're talking about here really is what people can do
to shift from victimhood into being empowered, to go from 85% to the 15%. Or if they're already in the 15%, you know, stay there rather than going down the slippery slope to victimhood.
'Cause as you're describing it to me it sounds like.. it really is something that.. it's almost like an addiction, or it's almost like something you can fall into.. Is it a case of getting your human needs from being a victim and identifying as a victim? Is that how you would describe it?
Yeah. You know, I think, I think what happens is it is easy to fall into. There's no question about it. If it wasn't easy, you wouldn't have 85% of the people doing that. But the sadness about it is, while it might seem easier at the time to fall into victimhood, it might seem even warm and cozy in some strange way.
And while it's hard, when you're going through hardship to brush it off, to pull yourself up, to keep going, to fight your way through it, the rewards on the other side versus the destruction of falling into victimhood is so alarming that the difference in what your life could be is so extraordinary that we just got to try to help people to develop the skill set to move through the hardship.
And I'm convinced that there's not a human being on the planet that doesn't have within them the capability and the ability to move through hardship. It's there. They just have to be aware of it and they have to pull on it. That's all.
I love that. So there was one story actually, which really shines a light on how it's possible to go through so much and come out the other side. It was one of the victims of the Catholic church trial that you mentioned. Can you touch briefly on what happened there and how you think he was able to still have all the success that he had in spite of all the things he went through?
Well, interestingly, out of our 150 clients, 20 of them fit the category of the 15%, which is almost 15%. And that was another thing that was enlightening to me. This particular gentleman, he was the first one that I had met that would fit within that category. I was set to take his deposition.
I had met him previously and his deposition was being taken in San Diego and I was very much used to who the clients were and sort of what they went through in their lives. When somebody is sexually molested by an authority figure - parent, teacher, policemen, certainly a priest - it destroys their life because they rebel against authority. So they start doing badly in school. They can't hold a job. They get in trouble with the law and their life really gets screwed up.
So anyway, this gentleman comes to the deposition and you know, he's wearing a beautifully tailored suit. I'm interviewing him before the church is about to take his deposition and I had a file on him, so I had known some of this stuff. But hearing him talk about it was really amazing, you know, wonderful job. It was a, just keep in mind, this is in early two thousands, but you know, he's making $300,000 a year.
He's happily married, he's got a couple of children, he coaches him in little league. I mean, he could have been the world's greatest father and dad, great guy, great attitude, positive. And so I asked him, I said, you know, what you went through was horrible and what he went through was really bad. Some of the molestations were fondling, but some were really bad and his was a bad one.
I said, how in the world did you come out like this and how do you view it today? And he said, look, bad things happen. And this was terrible. I hated every minute of it. But I wasn't gonna let it define me. That wasn't who I was, who I am now is who I was. And he said he feels sorry because he knows, because he's been involved in the litigation.
He's met so many of the other victims and said, I feel so bad for them because of how their lives have been destroyed. He says, I'm just not going to let that happen to my life. Then I ask him about, because you mentioned his wife goes to church, and I said, wow, how about your kids? Are you raising them in a church?
He said, yeah, you know, listen, this was my experience. So it sounds to me it's going to be their experience. We know what to look to determine whether or not an event, a negative event, is occurring. We're never going to allow that to happen to our kids. My wife feels strongly about religion and that's great. He says, I don't go to church. I only go to church if it's a wedding or a funeral.
He says this pretty much beat the religion out of him. He says, I'm a spiritual person, but you know, I don't go to church. So he had this great attitude about everything. It wasn't like he didn't like say, oh, I hate the church and I want to burn down the church. It wasn't any of that. He had moved through it and passed it, yeah, there was some things he wasn't going to go back to.
Oh my goodness, this guy was just incredible. And it really impressed me and it really surprised me. And that really was, like I said, that was the beginning of me becoming aware of the sightseeing psychiatric science on 15%. I'd never heard of this before. And it really is what caused me then to want to do research and then eventually to write the book.
Wow, that's fascinating. Such an incredible story. So one final question then from me is, if somebody senses that they might be part of the 85%, they might be a victim. They might be getting all of the sense of certainty and connection and everything from sympathy from others. And they sense that, you know, yeah, maybe I am in that 85%.
What steps can they take to transition? I mean, is it possible for them to identify that they are a victim and then is it easy, as easy as doing some visualizations and things to transition or, what's some real advice you could give to someone who wants to switch category?
Well, I think the first thing they have to do is to be aware of what's happened. They have to be aware that perhaps they are trapping themselves in and being a victim. Listen, nobody's asking anybody to forget the pain. Nobody's asking anybody to not attack. Like it never happened in their life. No, that's not what we're saying at all.
What we're saying is if you want your life to be better, if being a victim is causing you happiness, if it's causing you not to be the success you want to be, if it's causing you problems in your marriage or your relationships, and I guarantee you if you're stuck in victimhood, all of those things are probably true. Then what you have to do is to change, okay?
It is not at this point, it might've been somebody else's fault that made you a victim, okay? But it is no longer anybody's fault that he's keeping you of it other than you. And if you want to make the change, you can do it in any moment of now. And it begins by recognizing that you've kinda gotten trapped and that you want to that trap.
Now, if you can just do that, then the rest is going to start to fall in place. You know, you can read my book, you can read other books that have been written about this, that will give you the ideas and the characteristics of the elements that you need to go ahead and make the escape.
But what has to happen first is you have to have an awareness that, you know what, this sucks. I'm not happy in my life and I have gotten stuck in being a victim and I am not going to do this anymore. I am going to move on and I am going to make a success out of my life. I'm going to be a better human being. I'm going to be a better person. I'm going to be a better father, I'm going to be a better whatever. And yeah, I am going to move on and be happy in my life.
Yeah, that's it. You know, it's easy for somebody to say, well why wouldn't anybody want to do that? But you know, it's hard. And when people get depressed, they'll tell you what depression, the last thing you should say to a depressed person is, snap out of it, be happy.
It's not always that easy because quite honestly, all of the elements in the brain and the body have but now taught that you've taught yourself how to be a victim and you're kind of stuck there.
So, you know, it's a little bit like deciding you're gonna, you know, if you're an alcoholic, you're going to give up alcohol or if you're a drug addict, you're going to give up drugs. There is it, there is a certain feeling that comes along with being a victim. That's a little bit like being a drug addict.
I'm not talking about when you're in the middle of being a victim, I'm talking about after you, after the hardship has happened, but you just can't pop out of it. You can't get over it. That's when you got to fight through it. But it starts with wanting to fight through it.
So it's a little bit like when you start the 12 steps, when you're an alcoholic, the first thing is to admit that you have a problem. It's exactly the same thing.
All right Terry. Today's been really, really fascinating. So when does your book come out and how do people find it?
Well, it gets released on Tuesday, March 10th, and you can order it through Amazon, Barnes & Noble, I think most bookstores. And that's the best way to get hold of it. I'm sure if you'd Google it, The Fifteen Percent, you can find where it'd be wherever you are locally. So if you pick up the book, I hope you enjoy it and I hope it, it gives you some assistance or help. And I really appreciate being on your show today. It was great fun.
I loved your stories, loved your insights. And I really hope your book gets out to the right people who could really benefit from it.
Well, thanks. I appreciate that a lot.
You're welcome. Okay, Terry, thanks so much for joining me today and it's been a pleasure chatting with you.
Thank you. Bye bye.